I was unaware that raymond had given a response in regard to debating his topic. I attempted to make a response, but see it is now closed.

Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease current occurs in 1 person per 1,000,000. Some cases have been attributed to people taking growth hormone from cadaver sources. In regard to your mad cow theory, there has not been a single case of NVCJD (new version Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease) reported in the US.

Just to refresh, it is your claim that taking this MHP product will result in NVCJD and there has never been a case reported inside the US, is that right?

Hey Mike!

The Administrator did close the topic because you did not answer to all of my questions so far;
So now it is gonna be interesting..

To refresh your memory, I will do a cut and paste from the previous topic;

Mike,

First of all let me make one thing clear; I have nothing against you personally; You have a great website; nice layout, you are reselling also good stuff, against reasonable prices. But you are also reselling products that might cause potential health risks in human beings, and that bothers me.

my points are the following;

1) In USA there was a BSE epidemy recently and the US-FDA made an emergency response program for that.
BSE is a terrible illness caused by prions. Once a person gets infected; death is inevitable. In response to the mad-cow crisis, the United States Department of Agriculture banned the human consumption of cow brains, skulls, spinal cords, vertebral columns, eyes, and nerve tissue from cows older than 30 months. Downer cows may no longer be eaten by humans, though they will be boiled down and fed to chickens and pigs, and younger cow brains may still be eaten. Some 471 British cattle were imported into the US before they were outlawed in a 1989 ban. Of these possibly infectious animals, 188 were rendered down into animal feeds and at least 66 couldn't be traced. Scrapie is endemic in 39 US states which doesn't explain several outbreaks of Mink Spongiform Encephalopathy at US fur farms. These animals cannot be infected with scrapie... but they had been given feeds made from 'downer' dairy cattle. 'Downers' is the American term for cows which fall down and cannot stand up again because of sickness. Richard Marsh, a veterinary scientist at the University of Wisconsin, has carried out experiments which suggest that some 'downer' cows may be infected with a type of BSE. And in America, the land of beef- and burger-eaters, there are 100 million cattle of which 300,000 die due to unexplained causes every year.



2) Anterior pituitary substance is ALWAYS a risk , whether the source is human beings, bovine, pig or sheep. This because it is a place where prions like to nest in. In pigs there is a disease called BASE with the similar symptoms. So it does not matter from what source this has been extracted. MHP claims the source is from pigs. I can hardly believe that. Especially because they also export this product to Islam countries, and as the manufacturer of this product you can not neglect mentioning the source of the anterior pituitary substance, if it is extracted from pigs. The fact is that from a political standpoint MHP does not mention the source, whatsoever, so they could easilly export this to both Islam countries as well as to Hindu countries. If they got complaints from Islam people they tell the source was from bovine. If they got complaints from Hindu people they could tell the source was from pigs. You have no evidence this is really the case. However if fundamental Islam people really find out the source was pigs; this would mean a real war against MHP. Then MHP should really start worrying about this. Anyhow, In Europe suspectable parts from the animals are not meant for consumption, and are destroyed, to prevent infections from prion diseases. In the US you are also not allowed to put this in your suplements by the FDA. And then US supplement makers, protected by the law of Orrin Hatch could put this in supplements just like that? I have no words for that!

3) Because of the long incubation time (From one case with CFJ disease it is known that the symptoms of the disease showed up after 38 years!) , somebody who might be contaminated will notice this not immediately, because prion diseases are not detected by the immune system.
And if he noticed it, probably he is not able to make the link with a supplement that he took 30 years ago. Do you know exactly what you have eaten on 25 August of the year 1990?? My point is that this product could be ordered by teenagers of 17-18 years old, and before they notice they might have CFJ disease, they are probably 47-48, married with children. And let me tell you this; for a family member one of the most terrible things in life is loosing a dearfull father. If you are a real Hero, I dare you to supply me the names and adresses of the customers you already have sold this supplement to, and are going to sell it in the near future. I offer you to follow the health of these persons on longer term. And if they turned out finally to be contaminated, their family members also know whom to blame for it in the future; Primarily MHP the manufacturer for the already sold supplements, and secondary MHP and yourself for the supplements that are still in your stock and are to be sold, after today. Because as of now you can not deny anymore not to have known about the possible health risks (I personally told you this). And this board can be used for future evidence. So hopefully you are no coward and will return to this board, to at least answer my questions. I bet you do not even have the guts to do that.

4) Knowing this could happen with supplements with anterior pituitary substance, I would take no risk at all and take this out of the collection, if I were you. Why do you have to wait starting with acting only IF the first vitim has proofed the supplement is bad. Than it is too late. I think this a bad attitude. And you have clearly clarified your standpoint; you are only reselling; if something happens; blame the manufacturer, and not the reseller. And that is one thing I disagree with you. In my opinion the reseller has an equal responsibility in this. If a product is suspicious to be potential dangerous for human well being, I would have either warn the customer or put it out of the stock for moral reasons. Keep in mind If somebody is contaminated; death is inevitable.

5) Since you did not answer any of my questions, especially; How you will act , knowing now this might be a potential danger for human well being and what you will do in that case; either take it out of your collection, or continue reselling and advertising it on your website, without at least adding an enclosure of the possible health risks, I still do not know your standpoint.

6) You told me your job and own concern is exporting stuff fast and cheap to Europe. Instead of taking these products out of your collection, it seems that you are delibaretely promoting these supplements , including the pro-hormones, and stirring up EU people to stock up these products. Is this because of the US law coming on to abandon these products in the near future and you can not get rid of your old stock fast enough? Keep in mind that all hormone products are already illegal on the EU import custom list. So you are already thresspassing EU laws and run the risk on a serious penalty and lawsuite. You bring yourself in danger, without realising this. Not to mention the fact that you mark these invoices down and label them as "gifts" to prevent EU customs opening the parcel. In this way import and duty taxes are avoided. Another illegal activity that you offer on this forum as "service". This is not professional at all. A customs officer in duty could easilly trace you on this board. The reason why I see this supplement in shops in Europe sometimes, is because customs also do not read the contents on the supplements, or do not understand the terminology. But as a professional provider of supplements, you claim to be, you should know better.

7) Reselling things fast and cheap is one service, another service is reselling only high quallified stuff with minimum health risks for your customers. It is clearly that you are focussing on a quick win on short term. Obviously there is lacking a long term strategy here. You might be a professional reseller, but informing the customers is lousy.

8) Anterior pituitary substance could not be compared with vitamin C. When you got an overdosis with vitamin C it will leave the body with the urine. With prions in anterior pituitary substance it is a different ballgame; You can not get rid of prions anymore, and death is inevitable. And that is the reason why I am pissed , and wished these products to be off the market as soon as possible, BEFORE it could make victims.
You start thinking about acting only IF the first victim shows up. Than for him it is too late. That is the major difference between us.

9) For your information; I am already in contact with Roger from MHP, so I know what I am talking about.

4) Knowing this could happen with supplements with anterior pituitary substance

You have no proof that it will happen. You are making far reaching assumptions that something might happen. Should we take protein off the market to because if you consume to much it can hurt your kidneys?

Why do you have to wait starting with acting only IF the first vitim has proofed the supplement is bad. Than it is too late. I think this a bad attitude.

As stated, in the US there has never been a case of NVCJD. If companies pulled every product because something might go wrong (remember we can't control what consumers do) then there would be no products. There has to be at least SOME proof to your statement.

5) Since you did not answer any of my questions, especially; How you will act , knowing now this might be a potential danger for human well being and what you will do in that case;

Once again, you have NO proof that this is a danger. You only make speculations.

Is this because of the US law coming on to abandon these products in the near future and you can not get rid of your old stock fast enough? Keep in mind that all hormone products are already illegal on the EU import custom list.

haha, you are funny. We get rid of our products just fine. Consumers in these countries buy a product and enjoy it. That product is likely to be banned in a short period of time. I have never said stock up now or anything like that. I just inform them of what is going on US policy wise. You like making assumptions don't you? You've done it through your entire rant.

So you are already thresspassing EU laws and run the risk on a serious penalty and lawsuite.

I am not responsible for what someone orders in the EU. Now you are making up laws

You bring yourself in danger, without realising this. Not to mention the fact that you mark these invoices down and label them as "gifts" to prevent EU customs opening the parcel. In this way import and duty taxes are avoided. Another illegal activity that you offer on this forum as "service". This is not professional at all.

I'm sure members of this board and many others would love to pay an outragous tax on the goods they purchase. Maybe everybody doesn't have a lot of money like you raymond. The guy who just wants to buy protein and workout, why should he have to pay a fortune in taxes to do that? Is that fair to him? Because resellers in the country know people don't like to import, they charge insaine prices, why don't you complain to them?

7) Reselling things fast and cheap is one service, another service is reselling only high quallified stuff with minimum health risks for your customers. It is clearly that you are focussing on a quick win on short term. Obviously there is lacking a long term strategy here. You might be a professional reseller, but informing the customers is lousy.

I have more research articles originally written for my website than any other site out there. How DARE you acccuse me of not informing my consumers. You are nothing but a paranoid internet poster who wants a lot of attention to boost his ego. I hope you have gotten that. As I stated from the start, you aren't going to change your mind on this. Have fun posting raymond, I have dirty supplements to sell to the EU haha.

9) For your information; I am already in contact with Roger from MHP, so I know what I am talking about.

Because you talk to a company rep this now make you an authority on the subject?

This should be interesting...

let the discussion go on !!!! but keep it nice and clean please

Hmmm, i’m still on Raymonds side. Maybe 1fast400 is right, and is there no actual proof that the supp. does indeed cause NVCJD. But there is a chance that it DOES . Probably it’s a very small chance. But the nasty thing about NVCJD is that there is no cure for it and the incubation time is long.

With most supps there is a risk of unwanted side-effects. But most of these side-effect are reversible. And when your body can’t handle the supplement it will give warning signs (pain, etc) so you can stop before serious harm is done. NVCJD is another story, it’s irreversible and you won’t notice a thing until the disease becomes active after many years.

I really do like your site, and I’ve read many positive stories’ about your excellent service and fast delivering but I really do think it would be wise to stop selling the supp.

ORIGINAL: 1Fast400

I was unaware that raymond had given a response in regard to debating his topic. I attempted to make a response, but see it is now closed.

it was closed because you did not reply. maybe we should have kept it open, but thought you'd left the discussion with what you've said.

sry about that.

It's also necessarry to stick with the point, tah is if it is possible that it can cause NVCJD.

The way it is send isn't the point or other laws is not what this topic is about.

Still I am also on Raymonds side, that it might can cause CJD. The whole point is according to me.. what is the source .. is it risk free..

And an other issue is.. the political thing as stated in point two in Raymonds posts, but also that point is not what it is about, but can make it more complex to get a true answer.

Does Raymond have any proof of WHERE they get their anterior pituitary from? He has made the assumption they get it from cows.

ORIGINAL: 1Fast400

Does Raymond have any proof of WHERE they get their anterior pituitary from? He has made the assumption they get it from cows.

sorry that i interrupt .... well, maybe you should just approve the opposite (i'm getting curious as well )

According to my sources, MHP makes it from pigs. The other manufacturers of secretagogue-like stuff (Secretagogue DOES NOT contain secretagogues!!!) don't want to tell.

Espi

Dear Mr McCandles

Mike.. can I call you Mike. In case of MHP a friend of mine working for the University of Wageningen in the Netherlands did a check with MHP and with the Dutch authorities. MHP might not be dangerous... as first thought. But it is snakeoil just the same.

As for ephedrine is concerned you are right. There is no law that prohibits selling ephedrine, but I assume that selling the product just over the internet without verifying if your customer is not a minor could bring legal problems. How do you verify that ?
Working at your store that might be a whole lot easier. Oh I forgot .. you talked to mr Collins.

I am only curious, why does a reasonably smart... perhaps even likable fellow like you want to sell us .... a few snake oil products alongside worthwhile products ? Integrity does that ring a bell ? Let me put a in perspective. I would applaud a steroi d dealer who dares to sell the real thing, but I dispise a salesman who dares to bring something like tribulus as a natural testosterone booster. You do that. Tribulus is a very very weak NO booster nothing less. Cialis works 10x better and even by standards it is safer and more effective than Tribulus.... (Tribulus = Snake Oil) and yet you sell those items. Why ?

You have so many other fine products that actually work and are safe to use, yet somehow you mix that up with selling the snake oil products like Secre atogogue One.

Let me quote your mission statement: " Who am I?
My name is Mike McCandless, and I got involved in supplements in 1997 while preparing for college level track and field. I walked into the local GNC store after reading 1 issue of MuscleMag International. I spent $300 bucks. It was 6 months later that I realized I had been screwed by the store. I did not have enough knowledge at the time to know this. I had been sold soy protein powder, creatine (at least this was a good buy) and various pills that were not effective.

I decided if I was going to learn about supplements, I needed to get a job at GNC....." Does that quote "screwed by the store" unquote ring a bell ? Even the best biochemists in the world give tribulus and yes even mr Derek Corneliusses product 2 thumbs down. And yet you sell those very items that do'nt come cheap and some have to work very hard for.

That is my problem with people like you mr McCandles. Proof us wrong please.

Give us two independent studies that Tribulus boosts testosterone. Pref. not one sponsored by the guys an galls at Sopharma.

Best regards

Anthony Siegler

Before I end . I must give you a triple A for excellent service when it comes to speed and handling of orders and complaints that is something others over here should improve. I must give you credit for that.

I sincerely hope that you are willing to clean up your assortment and get back to the basic working supps.

best regards

Anthony Siegler

@1Fast400.com;

Mike, Whilst you have responded to some of my questions, you are completely missing or avoiding my major point; that is; Do you feel responsible for the negative (side) effects some of the supplements you sell to your customers might cause to their health, and are you willing to warn them for suspicious products, if you know this beforehand to minimize their risks?

It does not contribute to our discussion if I would fall in reiterations, so let's stick to this major point.
Like Anthony Siegler said, I also sincerely hope that you are willing to clean up your assortment and get back to the basic working supps.

Keep in mind; in life to be trusted is a bigger compliment than to be loved.

@Gorilla;
Yes , I know what the source of the raw is; according to Roger of MHP the source was from pigs, so Espi was right; but human beings could also be infected from prions in anterior pituitary substance from pigs as being discussed here;

http://forum.body-fitness.nl/forum/Groeihormoon_supplement_Secretagogue_One%C2%AE_van_MHP_mogelijk_toch_veilig/m_85896/tm.htm


Raymond

I assume that selling the product just over the internet without verifying if your customer is not a minor could bring legal problems. How do you verify that ?

There is no law in our country in regard to customers buying vasopro. Ephedra is banned period.

I am only curious, why does a reasonably smart... perhaps even likable fellow like you want to sell us .... a few snake oil products alongside worthwhile products ? Integrity does that ring a bell ?

You guys don't understand the nature of business. There are many companies I don't carry, that others do. You don't see musclemarketing USA on my site, fizogen isn't on there same dela with a few others. There is a demand for some products, people are going to buy them. If they buy them from me at least that gives me capital to do better things with it. I'm the lowest price on the internet for ALCAR, ALA, R-ala and many other compounds. Especially those in raw powder form. I just spent 3k USD to buy piracetam. Where do you think money for things like that comes from? What about those articles on the site, those aren't free.

Cialis works 10x better and even by standards it is safer and more effective than Tribulus.... (Tribulus = Snake Oil) and yet you sell those items. Why ?

That is real fair, compare a perscription to an herb. There are only 2-3 trib products I sell anyway. Am I forcing you to buy them? Do you see me pushing them on the internet? Are they on the front of my site? Some consumers give positive feedback to these products (endotest/vitrix).

Does that quote "screwed by the store" unquote ring a bell ? Even the best biochemists in the world give tribulus and yes even mr Derek Corneliusses product 2 thumbs down. And yet you sell those very items that do'nt come cheap and some have to work very hard for.

Ok Derek sold a gugglebolic product with no gugglestrones in it. I spent the money to have it tested. I've spent over 40,000USD in lawsuits defending my website www.Labelclaimstesting.com. Where do you think that money came from? I have NEVER told anyone to buy a trib product. THAT is the difference. Customers won't come to my store and have us recommend these products. That is why we have science articles on our site. To TEACH consumers what is good and what isn't. That is why I have a message board as well. I like how you look at over 1300 items on my store and pick 2, less than 1% of items and complain.

Give us two independent studies that Tribulus boosts testosterone. Pref. not one sponsored by the guys an galls at Sopharma.

http://www.bulknutrition.com/?ingredients_id=52

An article with 18 references.

Mike, Whilst you have responded to some of my questions, you are completely missing or avoiding my major point; that is; Do you feel responsible for the negative (side) effects some of the supplements you sell to your customers might cause to their health, and are you willing to warn them for suspicious products, if you know this beforehand to minimize their risks?

If a healthy person overdoses on protein by drinking the whole bag in one day am I responsible for that? If someone has high blood pressure and combines caffeine, yohimbine HCL and vasopro in high doses, should I be responsible for that?

Like Anthony Siegler said, I also sincerely hope that you are willing to clean up your assortment and get back to the basic working supps.

Ok, since I proved that your disease is not an issue in our country, you are now attempting to change your original argument?
]

@Mike;

Thank you! I am all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view.

Let's agree we will never agree.
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.

Anyhow I do appreciate you've set aside your special time to humiliate yourself in public. You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.

I will always cherish the initial misconceptions I had about you.
I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid.

Raymond

ORIGINAL: 1Fast400
If a healthy person overdoses on protein by drinking the whole bag in one day am I responsible for that? If someone has high blood pressure and combines caffeine, yohimbine HCL and vasopro in high doses, should I be responsible for that?

Well, that’s the problem with that secratogue-what’s-it’s-name-again-supplement. If you use the supp. as recommended there’s stil a slight chance you can die from it. I don’t know any other supplement that can kill you without warning when using the recommended dose.

I stick to my previous statement: stop selling the supplement.

Let's agree we will never agree.

I agree. I also think the language barrier isn't helping this either.

Anyhow I do appreciate you've set aside your special time to humiliate yourself in public. You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.

Rather than argue with any facts, you make emotional statements. A sign of a bad debater.

I will always cherish the initial misconceptions I had about you.
I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid.

Think what you want, I addressed your comments with facts. You came back with nothing.

Well, that’s the problem with that secratogue-what’s-it’s-name-again-supplement. If you use the supp. as recommended there’s stil a slight chance you can die from it. I don’t know any other supplement that can kill you without warning when using the recommended dose.

There isn't a chance you can die from it. Look at facts rather than Raymond's personal rant. That is all it is. This disease NVCJD has never appeared in the USA. They don't even get it from cows, they use pigs. Even if I took it off my site, you guys would just find another product to go after and somehow blame me for it.

@Mike;
It is difficult talking to somebody if he can't hardly understand that prions are a real danger for human well being. Proof does not help people who have taken this supplement and finally become ill. What Creutzfeldt and Jacobs proofed in 1920 is that human beings could get contaminated by prion diseases. Whether it comes from porc, beef, sheep or human beings.

That there is no victim in the USA so far proved not that the supplement is 100% safe, and could still cause vitims in the future!

Human beings do have another digestion than pigs and could get prion diseases easilly transfered from many sources:

That this is a serious problem is proved by the professors who discovered these prion diseases;

Inherited Prion Diseases are;

Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (CJD)
Gerstmann-Sträussler-Scheinker disease (GSS)
Fatal Familial Insomnia (FFI)

Infectious Prion Diseases are;
Kuru
Scrapie
Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE) or "Mad Cow Disease"
Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (CJD)
Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (vCJD)