Gebruikers van Groeihormoon releasers; Secretagogue part 2

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1Fast400
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Gebruikers van Groeihormoon releasers; Secretagogue part 2 - wo 14-apr-04 05:18
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I was unaware that raymond had given a response in regard to debating his topic. I attempted to make a response, but see it is now closed.

Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease current occurs in 1 person per 1,000,000. Some cases have been attributed to people taking growth hormone from cadaver sources. In regard to your mad cow theory, there has not been a single case of NVCJD (new version Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease) reported in the US.

Just to refresh, it is your claim that taking this MHP product will result in NVCJD and there has never been a case reported inside the US, is that right?
< Message edited by ErEf -- 29/4/2004 23:46:42 >

Raymond Han
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RE: Why was my original topic closed - wo 14-apr-04 08:06
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Hey Mike!

The Administrator did close the topic because you did not answer to all of my questions so far;
So now it is gonna be interesting..

To refresh your memory, I will do a cut and paste from the previous topic;

Mike,

First of all let me make one thing clear; I have nothing against you personally; You have a great website; nice layout, you are reselling also good stuff, against reasonable prices. But you are also reselling products that might cause potential health risks in human beings, and that bothers me.

my points are the following;

1) In USA there was a BSE epidemy recently and the US-FDA made an emergency response program for that.
BSE is a terrible illness caused by prions. Once a person gets infected; death is inevitable. In response to the mad-cow crisis, the United States Department of Agriculture banned the human consumption of cow brains, skulls, spinal cords, vertebral columns, eyes, and nerve tissue from cows older than 30 months. Downer cows may no longer be eaten by humans, though they will be boiled down and fed to chickens and pigs, and younger cow brains may still be eaten. Some 471 British cattle were imported into the US before they were outlawed in a 1989 ban. Of these possibly infectious animals, 188 were rendered down into animal feeds and at least 66 couldn't be traced. Scrapie is endemic in 39 US states which doesn't explain several outbreaks of Mink Spongiform Encephalopathy at US fur farms. These animals cannot be infected with scrapie... but they had been given feeds made from 'downer' dairy cattle. 'Downers' is the American term for cows which fall down and cannot stand up again because of sickness. Richard Marsh, a veterinary scientist at the University of Wisconsin, has carried out experiments which suggest that some 'downer' cows may be infected with a type of BSE. And in America, the land of beef- and burger-eaters, there are 100 million cattle of which 300,000 die due to unexplained causes every year.



2) Anterior pituitary substance is ALWAYS a risk , whether the source is human beings, bovine, pig or sheep. This because it is a place where prions like to nest in. In pigs there is a disease called BASE with the similar symptoms. So it does not matter from what source this has been extracted. MHP claims the source is from pigs. I can hardly believe that. Especially because they also export this product to Islam countries, and as the manufacturer of this product you can not neglect mentioning the source of the anterior pituitary substance, if it is extracted from pigs. The fact is that from a political standpoint MHP does not mention the source, whatsoever, so they could easilly export this to both Islam countries as well as to Hindu countries. If they got complaints from Islam people they tell the source was from bovine. If they got complaints from Hindu people they could tell the source was from pigs. You have no evidence this is really the case. However if fundamental Islam people really find out the source was pigs; this would mean a real war against MHP. Then MHP should really start worrying about this. Anyhow, In Europe suspectable parts from the animals are not meant for consumption, and are destroyed, to prevent infections from prion diseases. In the US you are also not allowed to put this in your suplements by the FDA. And then US supplement makers, protected by the law of Orrin Hatch could put this in supplements just like that? I have no words for that!

3) Because of the long incubation time (From one case with CFJ disease it is known that the symptoms of the disease showed up after 38 years!) , somebody who might be contaminated will notice this not immediately, because prion diseases are not detected by the immune system.
And if he noticed it, probably he is not able to make the link with a supplement that he took 30 years ago. Do you know exactly what you have eaten on 25 August of the year 1990?? My point is that this product could be ordered by teenagers of 17-18 years old, and before they notice they might have CFJ disease, they are probably 47-48, married with children. And let me tell you this; for a family member one of the most terrible things in life is loosing a dearfull father. If you are a real Hero, I dare you to supply me the names and adresses of the customers you already have sold this supplement to, and are going to sell it in the near future. I offer you to follow the health of these persons on longer term. And if they turned out finally to be contaminated, their family members also know whom to blame for it in the future; Primarily MHP the manufacturer for the already sold supplements, and secondary MHP and yourself for the supplements that are still in your stock and are to be sold, after today. Because as of now you can not deny anymore not to have known about the possible health risks (I personally told you this). And this board can be used for future evidence. So hopefully you are no coward and will return to this board, to at least answer my questions. I bet you do not even have the guts to do that.

4) Knowing this could happen with supplements with anterior pituitary substance, I would take no risk at all and take this out of the collection, if I were you. Why do you have to wait starting with acting only IF the first vitim has proofed the supplement is bad. Than it is too late. I think this a bad attitude. And you have clearly clarified your standpoint; you are only reselling; if something happens; blame the manufacturer, and not the reseller. And that is one thing I disagree with you. In my opinion the reseller has an equal responsibility in this. If a product is suspicious to be potential dangerous for human well being, I would have either warn the customer or put it out of the stock for moral reasons. Keep in mind If somebody is contaminated; death is inevitable.

5) Since you did not answer any of my questions, especially; How you will act , knowing now this might be a potential danger for human well being and what you will do in that case; either take it out of your collection, or continue reselling and advertising it on your website, without at least adding an enclosure of the possible health risks, I still do not know your standpoint.

6) You told me your job and own concern is exporting stuff fast and cheap to Europe. Instead of taking these products out of your collection, it seems that you are delibaretely promoting these supplements , including the pro-hormones, and stirring up EU people to stock up these products. Is this because of the US law coming on to abandon these products in the near future and you can not get rid of your old stock fast enough? Keep in mind that all hormone products are already illegal on the EU import custom list. So you are already thresspassing EU laws and run the risk on a serious penalty and lawsuite. You bring yourself in danger, without realising this. Not to mention the fact that you mark these invoices down and label them as "gifts" to prevent EU customs opening the parcel. In this way import and duty taxes are avoided. Another illegal activity that you offer on this forum as "service". This is not professional at all. A customs officer in duty could easilly trace you on this board. The reason why I see this supplement in shops in Europe sometimes, is because customs also do not read the contents on the supplements, or do not understand the terminology. But as a professional provider of supplements, you claim to be, you should know better.

7) Reselling things fast and cheap is one service, another service is reselling only high quallified stuff with minimum health risks for your customers. It is clearly that you are focussing on a quick win on short term. Obviously there is lacking a long term strategy here. You might be a professional reseller, but informing the customers is lousy.

8) Anterior pituitary substance could not be compared with vitamin C. When you got an overdosis with vitamin C it will leave the body with the urine. With prions in anterior pituitary substance it is a different ballgame; You can not get rid of prions anymore, and death is inevitable. And that is the reason why I am pissed , and wished these products to be off the market as soon as possible, BEFORE it could make victims.
You start thinking about acting only IF the first victim shows up. Than for him it is too late. That is the major difference between us.

9) For your information; I am already in contact with Roger from MHP, so I know what I am talking about.
May I be granted the ability & strength to change the things I can and the wisdom to understand the things I cannot.

Raymond Han

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - wo 14-apr-04 14:28
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4) Knowing this could happen with supplements with anterior pituitary substance



You have no proof that it will happen. You are making far reaching assumptions that something might happen. Should we take protein off the market to because if you consume to much it can hurt your kidneys?



Why do you have to wait starting with acting only IF the first vitim has proofed the supplement is bad. Than it is too late. I think this a bad attitude.


As stated, in the US there has never been a case of NVCJD. If companies pulled every product because something might go wrong (remember we can't control what consumers do) then there would be no products. There has to be at least SOME proof to your statement.


5) Since you did not answer any of my questions, especially; How you will act , knowing now this might be a potential danger for human well being and what you will do in that case;


Once again, you have NO proof that this is a danger. You only make speculations.


Is this because of the US law coming on to abandon these products in the near future and you can not get rid of your old stock fast enough? Keep in mind that all hormone products are already illegal on the EU import custom list.


haha, you are funny. We get rid of our products just fine. Consumers in these countries buy a product and enjoy it. That product is likely to be banned in a short period of time. I have never said stock up now or anything like that. I just inform them of what is going on US policy wise. You like making assumptions don't you? You've done it through your entire rant.


So you are already thresspassing EU laws and run the risk on a serious penalty and lawsuite.


I am not responsible for what someone orders in the EU. Now you are making up laws


You bring yourself in danger, without realising this. Not to mention the fact that you mark these invoices down and label them as "gifts" to prevent EU customs opening the parcel. In this way import and duty taxes are avoided. Another illegal activity that you offer on this forum as "service". This is not professional at all.


I'm sure members of this board and many others would love to pay an outragous tax on the goods they purchase. Maybe everybody doesn't have a lot of money like you raymond. The guy who just wants to buy protein and workout, why should he have to pay a fortune in taxes to do that? Is that fair to him? Because resellers in the country know people don't like to import, they charge insaine prices, why don't you complain to them?



7) Reselling things fast and cheap is one service, another service is reselling only high quallified stuff with minimum health risks for your customers. It is clearly that you are focussing on a quick win on short term. Obviously there is lacking a long term strategy here. You might be a professional reseller, but informing the customers is lousy.


I have more research articles originally written for my website than any other site out there. How DARE you acccuse me of not informing my consumers. You are nothing but a paranoid internet poster who wants a lot of attention to boost his ego. I hope you have gotten that. As I stated from the start, you aren't going to change your mind on this. Have fun posting raymond, I have dirty supplements to sell to the EU haha.



9) For your information; I am already in contact with Roger from MHP, so I know what I am talking about.


Because you talk to a company rep this now make you an authority on the subject?
< Message edited by 1Fast400 -- 14/4/2004 14:31:26 >

Hans
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RE: Why was my original topic closed - wo 14-apr-04 16:18
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This should be interesting...
"You eat someone else's cake again, and Imma give you a slice of my own PAIN CAKE!!! And you WON'T want seconds of THAT!" - Terry Tate, Office Linebacker

soulreaver
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RE: Why was my original topic closed - wo 14-apr-04 16:22
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let the discussion go on !!!! but keep it nice and clean please blij
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There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - wo 14-apr-04 16:37
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Hmmm, i’m still on Raymonds side. Maybe 1fast400 is right, and is there no actual proof that the supp. does indeed cause NVCJD. But there is a chance that it DOES . Probably it’s a very small chance. But the nasty thing about NVCJD is that there is no cure for it and the incubation time is long.

With most supps there is a risk of unwanted side-effects. But most of these side-effect are reversible. And when your body can’t handle the supplement it will give warning signs (pain, etc) so you can stop before serious harm is done. NVCJD is another story, it’s irreversible and you won’t notice a thing until the disease becomes active after many years.

I really do like your site, and I’ve read many positive stories’ about your excellent service and fast delivering but I really do think it would be wise to stop selling the supp.
We are the middle children of history, raised by television to believe that someday we'll be millionaires and movie stars and rock stars, but we won't. And we're just learning this fact. So don't fuck with us."

ErEf
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RE: Why was my original topic closed - wo 14-apr-04 16:59
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ORIGINAL: 1Fast400

I was unaware that raymond had given a response in regard to debating his topic. I attempted to make a response, but see it is now closed.


it was closed because you did not reply. maybe we should have kept it open, but thought you'd left the discussion with what you've said.

sry about that.

It's also necessarry to stick with the point, tah is if it is possible that it can cause NVCJD.

The way it is send isn't the point or other laws is not what this topic is about.

Still I am also on Raymonds side, that it might can cause CJD. The whole point is according to me.. what is the source .. is it risk free..

And an other issue is.. the political thing as stated in point two in Raymonds posts, but also that point is not what it is about, but can make it more complex to get a true answer.
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1Fast400
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RE: Why was my original topic closed - wo 14-apr-04 17:18
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Does Raymond have any proof of WHERE they get their anterior pituitary from? He has made the assumption they get it from cows.

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - wo 14-apr-04 17:43
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ORIGINAL: 1Fast400

Does Raymond have any proof of WHERE they get their anterior pituitary from? He has made the assumption they get it from cows.



sorry that i interrupt .... well, maybe you should just approve the opposite (i'm getting curious as well knipoog)

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - wo 14-apr-04 18:21
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According to my sources, MHP makes it from pigs. The other manufacturers of secretagogue-like stuff (Secretagogue DOES NOT contain secretagogues!!!) don't want to tell.

Espi

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 01:39
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Dear Mr McCandles

Mike.. can I call you Mike. In case of MHP a friend of mine working for the University of Wageningen in the Netherlands did a check with MHP and with the Dutch authorities. MHP might not be dangerous... as first thought. But it is snakeoil just the same.

As for ephedrine is concerned you are right. There is no law that prohibits selling ephedrine, but I assume that selling the product just over the internet without verifying if your customer is not a minor could bring legal problems. How do you verify that ?
Working at your store that might be a whole lot easier. Oh I forgot .. you talked to mr Collins.

I am only curious, why does a reasonably smart... perhaps even likable fellow like you want to sell us .... a few snake oil products alongside worthwhile products ? Integrity does that ring a bell ? Let me put a in perspective. I would applaud a steroi d dealer who dares to sell the real thing, but I dispise a salesman who dares to bring something like tribulus as a natural testosterone booster. You do that. Tribulus is a very very weak NO booster nothing less. Cialis works 10x better and even by standards it is safer and more effective than Tribulus.... (Tribulus = Snake Oil) and yet you sell those items. Why ?

You have so many other fine products that actually work and are safe to use, yet somehow you mix that up with selling the snake oil products like Secre atogogue One.

Let me quote your mission statement: " Who am I?
My name is Mike McCandless, and I got involved in supplements in 1997 while preparing for college level track and field. I walked into the local GNC store after reading 1 issue of MuscleMag International. I spent $300 bucks. It was 6 months later that I realized I had been screwed by the store. I did not have enough knowledge at the time to know this. I had been sold soy protein powder, creatine (at least this was a good buy) and various pills that were not effective.

I decided if I was going to learn about supplements, I needed to get a job at GNC....." Does that quote "screwed by the store" unquote ring a bell ? Even the best biochemists in the world give tribulus and yes even mr Derek Corneliusses product 2 thumbs down. And yet you sell those very items that do'nt come cheap and some have to work very hard for.

That is my problem with people like you mr McCandles. Proof us wrong please.

Give us two independent studies that Tribulus boosts testosterone. Pref. not one sponsored by the guys an galls at Sopharma.

Best regards

Anthony Siegler

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 01:47
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Before I end . I must give you a triple A for excellent service when it comes to speed and handling of orders and complaints that is something others over here should improve. I must give you credit for that.

I sincerely hope that you are willing to clean up your assortment and get back to the basic working supps.

best regards

Anthony Siegler
< Message edited by siegler -- 15/4/2004 7:27:50 >

Raymond Han
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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 08:09
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@1Fast400.com;

Mike, Whilst you have responded to some of my questions, you are completely missing or avoiding my major point; that is; Do you feel responsible for the negative (side) effects some of the supplements you sell to your customers might cause to their health, and are you willing to warn them for suspicious products, if you know this beforehand to minimize their risks?

It does not contribute to our discussion if I would fall in reiterations, so let's stick to this major point.
Like Anthony Siegler said, I also sincerely hope that you are willing to clean up your assortment and get back to the basic working supps.

Keep in mind; in life to be trusted is a bigger compliment than to be loved.

@Gorilla;
Yes , I know what the source of the raw is; according to Roger of MHP the source was from pigs, so Espi was right; but human beings could also be infected from prions in anterior pituitary substance from pigs as being discussed here;

http://forum.body-fitness.nl/forum/Groeihormoon_supplement_Secretagogue_One%C2%AE_van_MHP_mogelijk_toch_veilig/m_85896/tm.htm


Raymond
< Message edited by Raymond Han -- 15/4/2004 8:46:49 >
May I be granted the ability & strength to change the things I can and the wisdom to understand the things I cannot.

Raymond Han

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 13:33
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I assume that selling the product just over the internet without verifying if your customer is not a minor could bring legal problems. How do you verify that ?


There is no law in our country in regard to customers buying vasopro. Ephedra is banned period.


I am only curious, why does a reasonably smart... perhaps even likable fellow like you want to sell us .... a few snake oil products alongside worthwhile products ? Integrity does that ring a bell ?


You guys don't understand the nature of business. There are many companies I don't carry, that others do. You don't see musclemarketing USA on my site, fizogen isn't on there same dela with a few others. There is a demand for some products, people are going to buy them. If they buy them from me at least that gives me capital to do better things with it. I'm the lowest price on the internet for ALCAR, ALA, R-ala and many other compounds. Especially those in raw powder form. I just spent 3k USD to buy piracetam. Where do you think money for things like that comes from? What about those articles on the site, those aren't free.




Cialis works 10x better and even by standards it is safer and more effective than Tribulus.... (Tribulus = Snake Oil) and yet you sell those items. Why ?


That is real fair, compare a perscription to an herb. There are only 2-3 trib products I sell anyway. Am I forcing you to buy them? Do you see me pushing them on the internet? Are they on the front of my site? Some consumers give positive feedback to these products (endotest/vitrix).




Does that quote "screwed by the store" unquote ring a bell ? Even the best biochemists in the world give tribulus and yes even mr Derek Corneliusses product 2 thumbs down. And yet you sell those very items that do'nt come cheap and some have to work very hard for.


Ok Derek sold a gugglebolic product with no gugglestrones in it. I spent the money to have it tested. I've spent over 40,000USD in lawsuits defending my website www.Labelclaimstesting.com. Where do you think that money came from? I have NEVER told anyone to buy a trib product. THAT is the difference. Customers won't come to my store and have us recommend these products. That is why we have science articles on our site. To TEACH consumers what is good and what isn't. That is why I have a message board as well. I like how you look at over 1300 items on my store and pick 2, less than 1% of items and complain.



Give us two independent studies that Tribulus boosts testosterone. Pref. not one sponsored by the guys an galls at Sopharma.


http://www.bulknutrition.com/?ingredients_id=52

An article with 18 references.

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 13:36
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Mike, Whilst you have responded to some of my questions, you are completely missing or avoiding my major point; that is; Do you feel responsible for the negative (side) effects some of the supplements you sell to your customers might cause to their health, and are you willing to warn them for suspicious products, if you know this beforehand to minimize their risks?


If a healthy person overdoses on protein by drinking the whole bag in one day am I responsible for that? If someone has high blood pressure and combines caffeine, yohimbine HCL and vasopro in high doses, should I be responsible for that?


Like Anthony Siegler said, I also sincerely hope that you are willing to clean up your assortment and get back to the basic working supps.


Ok, since I proved that your disease is not an issue in our country, you are now attempting to change your original argument?
]

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 14:57
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@Mike;

Thank you! I am all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view.

Let's agree we will never agree.
Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.

Anyhow I do appreciate you've set aside your special time to humiliate yourself in public. You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.

I will always cherish the initial misconceptions I had about you.
I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid.

Raymond
May I be granted the ability & strength to change the things I can and the wisdom to understand the things I cannot.

Raymond Han

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 15:12
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ORIGINAL: 1Fast400
If a healthy person overdoses on protein by drinking the whole bag in one day am I responsible for that? If someone has high blood pressure and combines caffeine, yohimbine HCL and vasopro in high doses, should I be responsible for that?

Well, that’s the problem with that secratogue-what’s-it’s-name-again-supplement. If you use the supp. as recommended there’s stil a slight chance you can die from it. I don’t know any other supplement that can kill you without warning when using the recommended dose.

I stick to my previous statement: stop selling the supplement.
We are the middle children of history, raised by television to believe that someday we'll be millionaires and movie stars and rock stars, but we won't. And we're just learning this fact. So don't fuck with us."

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 15:26
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Let's agree we will never agree.


I agree. I also think the language barrier isn't helping this either.


Anyhow I do appreciate you've set aside your special time to humiliate yourself in public. You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers.


Rather than argue with any facts, you make emotional statements. A sign of a bad debater.


I will always cherish the initial misconceptions I had about you.
I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid.


Think what you want, I addressed your comments with facts. You came back with nothing.

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 15:28
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Well, that’s the problem with that secratogue-what’s-it’s-name-again-supplement. If you use the supp. as recommended there’s stil a slight chance you can die from it. I don’t know any other supplement that can kill you without warning when using the recommended dose.



There isn't a chance you can die from it. Look at facts rather than Raymond's personal rant. That is all it is. This disease NVCJD has never appeared in the USA. They don't even get it from cows, they use pigs. Even if I took it off my site, you guys would just find another product to go after and somehow blame me for it.

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 15:38
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@Mike;
It is difficult talking to somebody if he can't hardly understand that prions are a real danger for human well being. Proof does not help people who have taken this supplement and finally become ill. What Creutzfeldt and Jacobs proofed in 1920 is that human beings could get contaminated by prion diseases. Whether it comes from porc, beef, sheep or human beings.

That there is no victim in the USA so far proved not that the supplement is 100% safe, and could still cause vitims in the future!

Human beings do have another digestion than pigs and could get prion diseases easilly transfered from many sources:

That this is a serious problem is proved by the professors who discovered these prion diseases;

Inherited Prion Diseases are;

Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (CJD)
Gerstmann-Sträussler-Scheinker disease (GSS)
Fatal Familial Insomnia (FFI)

Infectious Prion Diseases are;
Kuru
Scrapie
Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE) or "Mad Cow Disease"
Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (CJD)
Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (vCJD)
< Message edited by Raymond Han -- 15/4/2004 16:08:14 >
May I be granted the ability & strength to change the things I can and the wisdom to understand the things I cannot.

Raymond Han

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 15:42
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ORIGINAL: 1Fast400


Well, that’s the problem with that secratogue-what’s-it’s-name-again-supplement. If you use the supp. as recommended there’s stil a slight chance you can die from it. I don’t know any other supplement that can kill you without warning when using the recommended dose.



There isn't a chance you can die from it. Look at facts rather than Raymond's personal rant. That is all it is. This disease NVCJD has never appeared in the USA. They don't even get it from cows, they use pigs. Even if I took it off my site, you guys would just find another product to go after and somehow blame me for it.

No, we only go after supplements that are potentially lethal. You have to believe us that we don’t have anything against you personally. Well, maybe Raymond sounds a bit hostile but he has some credit as he started the whole topic.

And if you were right all the time, if we get 100% rock solid proof that the product isn’t dangerous in any way, I will fall on my knees and beg for forgiving. No kidding. I realize that our posts do sound quite hostile. But it’s in nobody’s interest to insult you or get you upset. We just want an honest answer/discussion on a potentially lethal supp.

By the way, it’s no wonder there are no cases of NVCJD in the U.S.A., that’s because of the long incubation time.
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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 15:54
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By the way, it’s no wonder there are no cases of NVCJD in the U.S.A., that’s because of the long incubation time.



Explain how cases have been found in England? That is how this disease got its name, from appearing there. It is basically a term for the human form of mad cow. Blame the british for all this blij

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 15:56
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No, we only go after supplements that are potentially lethal.


Devils advocate.....you could say this about any supplement. At what point do consumers have to take some responsibility?

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 16:09
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If you take it to extreme’s than even water or salt can be lethal. But if you take the supplements recommended dose it shouldn’t be lethal.

I can explain why the disease has appeared in Britain. Because they probably ate contaminated meat a long time ago (or was the secratogue supp already on the market back then?).

If in 50 years there are still no cases of NVCJD in the U.S.A that lead back to the use of a contaminated supplement I guess you were right all the time. But till that time, there is still no proof that the supp isn’t dangerous.

I hope you are right that we are all acting like a bunch of paranoid morons, and that the supp is 100% safe to use. But unfortunately you don’t seem to be able to take my doubts away.
We are the middle children of history, raised by television to believe that someday we'll be millionaires and movie stars and rock stars, but we won't. And we're just learning this fact. So don't fuck with us."

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 16:10
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Really Mike; When everything is coming on your way, you are going the wrong way.
< Message edited by Raymond Han -- 15/4/2004 16:25:58 >
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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 16:23
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I can explain why the disease has appeared in Britain. Because they probably ate contaminated meat a long time ago (or was the secratogue supp already on the market back then?).

If in 50 years there are still no cases of NVCJD in the U.S.A that lead back to the use of a contaminated supplement I guess you were right all the time. But till that time, there is still no proof that the supp isn’t dangerous.


It's secreted out of PIG Brains.

There should be a slight difference between Cows and Pigs, but maybe you can help me out? knipoog

I'm supporting Mike on the supplements which are good or bad. It's up to the people who wants to buy them and not the responsability of the resellers from these so called not working or terribly bad supplements.

I believe in Mikes integrity! Even though he wants to make some money. Heck i wished i had such a good running internetbusiness.ja ja

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 16:25
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ORIGINAL: MaxMuscle
It's secreted out of PIG Brains.

There should be a slight difference between Cows and Pigs, but maybe you can help me out? knipoog

Pig brains can’t contain prions?ja ja
We are the middle children of history, raised by television to believe that someday we'll be millionaires and movie stars and rock stars, but we won't. And we're just learning this fact. So don't fuck with us."

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 16:30
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Lauw;

Eating pig brains are even dangerous , because they could contain prion diseases as well. In pigs they have discovered a disease called BASE, with the same symptoms as with BSE (cows).

Ray
< Message edited by Raymond Han -- 15/4/2004 16:32:21 >
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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 16:46
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I'm supporting Mike on the supplements which are good or bad. It's up to the people who wants to buy them and not the responsability of the resellers from these so called not working or terribly bad supplements.


I disagree with you; resellers should have an own responsibility, especially when we are talking about a serious subject like this. I can imagine that adults make there own decisions, but minors could order this without any control as well.

Keep in mind; once a person gets infected with prion diseases; death is inevitable; that is quite a difference with Vitamin-C
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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 16:59
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Ray,

I know you take this personal and you stand up for the ingorant one.. the minors etc.

But please do not insult Mike and of course that counts for everyone. Don't lose your temper as if your brain is allready affected.

ontopic
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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 17:07
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I will ask my father for some information... hopefulley he is allowerd to give me some information. It is his work to research this and if there is somebody who can give the right answers then it's him.. unfortenatelly most of his information is top secret so mostly he can't say much.. but gonna ask blij
Our greatest battles are that with our own minds... - Jameson Frank

There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 17:35
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I can explain why the disease has appeared in Britain. Because they probably ate contaminated meat a long time ago (or was the secratogue supp already on the market back then?).


No, some cows ate infected bone meal, which then ended up in humans. It tends to affect younger people and has early psychiatric manifestations. That is how they were able to find out, it occurs quickly.

It is my understanding with the NV condition, it is seen faster. Obviously this is the case since the trace of origin was found with the condition in the UK.

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 17:38
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Keep in mind; once a person gets infected with prion diseases


I agree with you, but you have zero proof that the MHP product would have this issues. Believe it or not, our farm industry has regulations to prevent such things from happening. We have to trust those laws. Just like we have to trust other filtrations systems in regard to our water and so on. There is always a chance something could happen. Your ALA could be poised with rat poison if there was a bad employee at the factory. We assume things like that don't happen.

Also, in the USA, it is not easy for a minor to get a credit card and be able to purchase. Of course it COULD happen, just not likely

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 17:41
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Hmm, somehow I also think we just won’t agree. Time will tell who was right. Or maybe soulreaver’s dad can come up with a definite answer.
Till then, I won’t hesitate to order from your site. But it will not be secratogou (how the f*ck do I spell it anyway?knipoog)
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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 18:03
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In regard to the comment I made, it is a fact that that NV version was found in the UK due to the contamination of bonemeal fed to cows. I spent less than 5 minutes looking this stuff up. I keep telling you, Raymound is going to find something else wrong on my site if I take that product off. I might just do it so I can see what he goes after next. I've sold a whopping 4-8 of them in 2 years.

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 18:07
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That is how they were able to find out, it occurs quickly.


I am sorry Mike; here is a case that it could take 11 years;

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/01/06/mad.cow.victim/index.html

CNN) -- At 24, Charlene should be finishing up her master's degree or taking other steps to plan her future. Instead, she's become a statistic.

Charlene is the only person living in the United States with the human form of mad cow disease, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. (Her parents don't want the family's last name revealed for reasons of privacy.)

Her case has taken on renewed interest since the U.S. Department of Agriculture confirmed the first appearance of mad cow disease in the United States last month, sparking concerns about the nation's beef supply.

Doctors at the CDC said they are sure Charlene caught the disease while living in Britain.

She lived in England until moving to Florida 11 years ago at age 13. So far, 143 people in Britain have contracted variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease or vCJD, also known as the human form of mad cow. Six of them are still alive.

The disease -- linked to eating infected beef -- was first reported in the United Kingdom in 1996. There is no known cure for the degenerative, fatal brain disorder. This disease is not to be confused with classic Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease, which has been reported for decades. The National Center for Health Statistics show cases of classic CJD occur in about one in a million people and usually strikes people in their sixties and seventies.

According to the CDC, Charlene sought medical help for memory loss and depression in November 2001, and a month later she reported involuntary muscular movements, changes in her walking and difficulty in dressing.

Her condition continued to worsen. In less than a year, Charlene was bedridden, unable to eat by herself and no longer able to communicate with family members. Doctors had given her a few months to live when CNN first interviewed her family in October 2002.

Since then, her parents said Charlene has not gotten any better nor has she become any worse.

"She has stabilized from the last time we saw you," said Charlene's dad, Patrick. "... They gave her three months at that time, and it's over 15 months now ... and she is still here. She has not deteriorated."

No cure available yet
How remarkable is it that Charlene is still living? U.S. and British health officials declined to comment about her condition, citing patient confidentiality. But a statement from the British Department of Health illustrates how little is known about variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease.

"It remains the case that there is still much that we do not know about vCJD," the statement reads. "For example, the route of infection, the incubation period, the level of exposure required to cause the disease and the possible role of genetic susceptibility. It is likely to be some years before we are able to make soundly based predictions about the future course of the disease."

Modern medicine has found no cure yet, but members of Charlene's family said they will not give up. They bathe and feed her, caring for her around the clock.

"How Charlene's mom does it, I don't know," Patrick said. "I'm amazed every day. It's tough on her -- it really is to be in this room every day. Because you can't leave. Sometimes she might need help breathing. ..."

A neurologist who saw CNN's original report on Charlene's condition was willing to try something new. He offered to give Charlene hyperbaric treatments -- pumping pure oxygen into her lungs -- which may help the brain function better. She gets treatments three times a week.

"When she first came in, she was virtually comatose, nonreactive," said Dr. Richard Neubauer of the Ocean Hyperbaric Neurologic Center in Lauderdale-by-the-Sea, Florida. "[She] could not obey commands, did nothing."

Neubauer said this procedure is no miracle treatment. He said he felt it was worth a try with Charlene since the treatment has alleviated other brain disorders.

"After 192 treatments, she's not only alive, but she's trying to talk," he said. "She's responsive and trying to respond to simple commands. [But she] still [has] a long way to go."

Charlene's dad agrees that the treatments have helped.

"She has put weight on. She looks brighter. She moves around a lot more. She murmurs a lot more," Patrick said. "So yes, I would say that there is some physical difference."

Charlene's family members said the recent announcement that a cow in Washington state tested positive for bovine spongiform encephalopathy, or BSE, concerns them.

"I was very upset that lessons have not yet been learned," worried Sharon, Charlene's aunt.

Patrick said, "It's like being in England all over again, reliving this BSE thing and being told the meat is safe to eat. If ... we believe our government on meat safety, if we are told any differently, my daughter would not be lying here right now."

Charlene's father and aunt said they aren't against the beef industry, but they said they do worry that some other parent's child could fall victim to variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease.

"I am not giving up on my daughter, not for one moment," Patrick said. "I think if we've come this far, we can go further, and I hope one day and pray she'll walk off this bed. I have no doubt."

CNN's Miriam Falco contributed to this report.
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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 18:22
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I agree with you, but you have zero proof that the MHP product would have this issues.


And neither you can exclude this chance for 100%. And you are reselling this supplement, not me!

I happen to know somebody who has used this supplement. For him I truly hope you are right. Time will learn.

If you are a real hero, you try this supplement yourself, then I will fly directly to the states to see you swallow it, then lets wait what will happen in the future.

Can you find out the names and addresses of the people you sold this supplement to, so I could contact them??
< Message edited by Raymond Han -- 15/4/2004 19:27:46 >
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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 21:43
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I took it 2 years ago, I'm not dead yet.

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RE: Why was my original topic closed - do 15-apr-04 23:49
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Let's wait another 9 years then.......
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RE: Why was my original topic closed - vr 16-apr-04 00:05
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ORIGINAL: 1Fast400

In regard to the comment I made, it is a fact that that NV version was found in the UK due to the contamination of bonemeal fed to cows. I spent less than 5 minutes looking this stuff up. I keep telling you, Raymound is going to find something else wrong on my site if I take that product off. I might just do it so I can see what he goes after next. I've sold a whopping 4-8 of them in 2 years.

No Mike I don't think Raymond has anything against your site or you personally.. (although in the heat of the debat it seems like that) it's just that he is convinced that products with secretagogue in it can possibly harm people and therefor it shouldn't be sold at all.

a whopping 8 of those in 2 years super blij.. aha.. that is how you can affort the gas for your mercedes super blij, and you used 1 yourself.
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