High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III

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3XL
Senior Moderator
2004/09/01 19:20:51 (permalink)
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High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III

Deel I

Ik ben ze lang kwijt geweest maar gelukkig via archive.org weer gevonden

3 zeer intersante artikelen van Lonnie Lowery die ooit op virtualmuscle verschenen met als essentie dat het voor krachtsporters wel een helemaal niet zo goed kan zijn direkt na het trainen koolhydraten te nemen ! !

Ik heb geen zin om de plaatjes te kopieren, dus hierbij ook de link

http://web.archive.org/web/20030812...b_nightmare.htm


Part I: Carb Nightmare?

Lonnie Lowery, PhD Cndt


You see it first! Some pretty disturbing EARLY data revealing the struggle your body undertakes just to deal with dietary carbohydrates while in a sore state. You punish your body with intense exercise but you're certainly no runner. The bottom line is, you shouldn't have to rely on high carb recommendations that stem from research on endurance athletes! Well, you don't have to anymore...

(This is the printer-friendly version.)

Do you get muscle soreness regularly from your lifting? If you train intensely, using eccentric contractions ("negatives") you're probably no stranger to the pain that comes from muscle damage. By "muscle damage" we mean the microscopic trauma that causes weakness and soreness while your body struggles to recover. Experienced lifters and physiologists know that the actual time spent in the gym is destructive, not constructive; that is, maximal growth comes only after some stress is placed upon a muscle and some damage is done. But many do not realize that if a large enough amount of muscle tissue is stressed, their ability to take-up and metabolize blood glucose is considerably worsened. That's right. Worsened.

A disease that is similar to (but more severe than) this state of poor glucose tolerance is Type II diabetes. Type II diabetics suffer from bodily tissues that are chronically unresponsive to insulin. The carbohydrates they eat enter their bloodstream (as glucose) but tend to stay there, gumming-up (glycosylating) other blood constituents and casing the pancreas to dump insulin in an effort to drive it in. About 90% of them are obese and have other problems related to hyperinsulinemia. Although many bodybuilders actually use insulin injections to aid muscle growth and recovery (dangerous and not recommended!), Type II diabetes is definitely "too much of a good thing". You see, having excess insulin in one's circulation can cause a number of problems, not the least of which is excess body FAT.

Enter exercise. It's a great way to get muscles to take-up blood glucose independent of insulin. Endurance training and weight training are a critical part of American Diabetes Association guidelines. But spending 30 minutes on a universal machine lifting two plates is a far cry from having 315 on one's back for six sets of ten! This is one thing we've been discovering lately in the Human Nutrition Lab (HNL) at Kent State University. Place enough load on large muscle groups using negatives - as many athletes do - and glucose intolerance can result! It's not as severe as that seen in diabetics but it appears to be enough to dampen recovery. You see, muscles need to turn blood glucose into glycogen (stored carbs) to stay full and energetic... but it can't get into a damaged muscle very well. It's a "catch-22" situation. Eccentric contractions induce superior growth4 but result in long recovery periods and poor carbohydrate efficiency.1,2,3,6,7 With regards to glucose intolerance, it's a scenario similar in appearance to Syndrome X, a condition rampant in western societies characterized by obesity and hypertension - presumably due to poor glucose handling. Even without intense lifting nearly 10% of men are hyperglycemic (have abnormally high blood glucose)5.







Taking a look at the above graph that's hot off the presses from the HNL at Kent State, we see that early results suggest hampered glucose tolerance in all subjects from muscle damage. This bodes poorly for maximal recovery. The lines come from an oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT) performed before and 24 hours after an intense workout. An OGTT is simply a series of blood draws, taken before and immediately after ingestion of 75 g of glucose (fast-acting sugar). Blood glucose commonly goes up about 40 points (mg/ dl) between 30-60 minutes, then insulin drives it back down. We didn't expect blood glucose to be this affected by the intense (eccentric) lifting. You see, the body's control over circulating glucose is necessarily TIGHT. We hypothesized (guessed) that subjects' pancreases would have to dump extra insulin to keep the glucose down in the face of all this "trauma", but not this actual hyperglycemic response; wow! The exercise bout consisted of six sets of six repetitions at 80% of the subjects' one rep max. Both bench press and squatting were performed in this manner on a Smith machine, using a four-count to lower the bar. The exercise session was designed to affect a maximal amount of skeletal muscle but also to mimic a state that is common to weight lifters.

Of course data is still coming in, but we are able to share some numbers on the first five subjects. By analyzing the data, we find that (with a fancy statistical test) we have high statistical power, meaning that we will end up with significant results by the end of the study (20 subjects). Yes, stats can turn us into veritable "swamis", allowing us to "see into the future" and not waste time on worthless studies. How many supplement investigators do that?! It's another benefit of having strong researchers at the HNL. We've got evidence to be pretty excited about the possibility of actually changing current nutrition recommendations for lifters, which is why I'm sharing this info now. I have to reserve final judgment, however, for the date my associates and I complete the study.

It's also important to realize that we need to validate that the large muscle groups of the shoulder girdle and lower body were actually damaged to some extent from the exercise. To do this we took some of the blood from the OGTT, spun it down in a centrifuge and tested the serum for creatine kinase (CK), alanine aminotransferase (ALT), aspartate aminotransferase (AST) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH). These enzymes (notice the -ase suffix on each word; that denotes an enzyme) are "spilled" from muscle tissue for a period of 3-7 days after hard eccentric exercise.6 They suggest muscle trauma and our subjects were, in fact "traumatized". Check out the elevation in CK from an example subject:





The relatedness (or correlation) between fasting blood glucose and CK, for example, was tested on two separate post-workout occasions, revealing significant relationships (r = 0.54 to 0.75). These are moderate to strong relationships between muscle damage and poor glucose usage. In other words, when muscles are damaged, dietary carbs don't leave the blood stream very well (and enter the muscle tissue). Muscle soreness measurements add to the evidence, also suggesting that damage was done (have YOU ever gotten really sore from training?). They correlated moderately to highly with the CK results.

Clearly runners and cyclists need to replenish carb stores; they exhaust their glycogen almost daily. Hence the high dietary carb recommendations. And although many weight trainers insist carbs make them fat, they do need some for similar reasons. But for most of us it's really about growth as opposed to say, boosted performance and if we're not getting them into our sore muscles, where are they going?

One answer could be adipose tissue. Yep, body fat is another recipient of blood glucose. When insulin levels are high, fat cells grab up the blood borne glucose - even more so than sore muscles, presumably. And what happens to glucose once in a fat cell? You guessed it, fat building (lipogenesis). So now we see a "double whammy" scenario when muscles are just too rocked to accept blood glucose efficiently: First, they can't recovery rapidly, failing to optimally replenish their glycogen stores (and creating muscle fullness); Second, the left over circulating glucose likely goes where it can, into body fat.

What can be done about this problem that appears to be specific to weight trainers? Well, one thing is to report it to the scientific community so "experts" tone-down their "high carbs for all athletes" recommendations. Another is to give some preliminary suggestions to athletes as to when to eat plenty of carbs and when it might be better to reduce them. Finally, we can search for nutrients that may help glucose tolerance so bodybuilders can continue to induce muscle growth via "negatives" AND recover maximally. THAT, my friends, is what we're working on in the HNL right now! Stay tuned for Part Two of "High Carbs for Everyone?" to get practical suggestions and to see which compounds we're testing and what they're doing for glucose metabolism!

Editors' Note: Remember, data on graphs above are preliminary, using available data as it comes-in and representative case examples. It's important to wait for the completion of these studies for more comprehensive conclusions. Virtual Muscle shares this information in an effort to get it to those who matter, the ATHLETES, as soon as possible!



REFERENCES

Doyle, J., et al. (1993). J Appl Physiol 74(4): 1848-1855.
Friden, J., et al. (1983). Int J Sport Med 4: 170-176.
Gibala, M., et al. (1995). J Appl Physiol 78(2): 702-708.
Hortobagyi, T., et al. (1996). J Appl Physiol 80(3): 765-772.
Lowe, L., et al. (1997). Diabetes Care 20 (1): 163-175.
Lowery, L., et al. (2001). Doctoral dissertation. Kent State University.
Sherman, W. (1992). Int J Sport Nutr 2(3): 251-259.
#1

31 Replies Related Threads

    3XL
    Senior Moderator
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - II 2004/09/01 19:22:09 (permalink)
    0
    Deel II


    http://web.archive.org/web/20030812...ightmare_II.htm


    Part II: Data Accumulates

    the VM Editors





    This article is for those of you who want hard facts to help your supplement buying decisions and training recovery! It shows relationships between exercise-induced muscle damage and hampered carb use. It also updates everyone on the effects of a new herbal blend that may help. If you lift to the point of muscle soreness you need to stay abreast of this series of studies! Knowledge is power, baby. Show me the data!

    Having printer issues? Want a more easily printed version of this article? Right-click here.



    Hormone Havok

    The alarm goes off in its usual rude tone: Beep! Beep! Beep! “Time to make the donuts”, thinks professor Lowery jokingly as his feet hit the cool hardwood floor. It’s six o’clock AM on a Sunday. Lonnie Lowery, director of the Human Nutrition Laboratory (HNL) at Kent State University, might be a bit salty at this hour but he rushes to the shower nonetheless. “Today’s the day,” he anticipates. “We’ll finally get our insulin measurements and know the whole picture…”

    Why is this man excited – especially at this hour? Because he knows that a picture is becoming clearer as his research continues. The picture involves resistance trained athletes and their ability to recover from intense lifting. It's starting to look as if current high dietary carbohydrate recommendations may be overstated. Thirty minutes away, his colleague, Dr. Ron Mendel is already getting in his car to leave for the Lab. Ron, too knows that they may be on the verge of something big.

    The campus is a ghost town on this frigid Sunday morning but already the Lab is percolating to life. As the coffee brews down in the office, the two men are joined by Dr. Tim Ziegenfuss, who’s made the drive down to lend a hand with the hormone assays.

    “Hmm…” mutters Lonnie as the results are spit out of the ELISA machine. “It looks as if the hypothesis was correct; these subjects are not handling carbohydrates well at all when they’re sore. Look at those insulin levels.” For the past few months these researchers have been hypothesizing (guessing) that intensely training bodybuilders may be at least partly justified in their insistence that “carbs make them fat”. [Editors’ note: See “Carb Nightmare” in the Virtual Muscle online archives.] There has been indirect evidence of this in the past but a primary goal of HNL is to provide direct evidence straight to those who matter: the athletes. Look how strong the relationships are between muscle damage (from exercise) and poor dietary carb use:







    The above graphs show how the body produces additional insulin after a "meal" to try and compensate for damaged muscles. They also indicate that dietary carbs appear to stay in the blood of sore athletes. The muscle damage, as indicated by CK in the blood (described more below) and perceptions of soreness, apparently retard muscles' ability to take up blood sugar (glucose). That is, subjects with more damage are the ones who exhibit worse "glucose tolerance". The more severe the damage, the worse the glucose intolerance. The pancreas won't stand for high blood sugar and attempts to hammer-home the glucose by dumping lots of insulin. If you've read earlier VM pieces on insulin and muscle building, you know that, although highly anabolic, insulin is a "Jeckyl and Hyde" hormone. Too much can be counter productive to the physique athlete by building fatty tissue (lipogenesis).

    The problem here is that athletes need to rebuild muscle carbohydrate stores (glycogen) in order to recover - but can't ...at least not when they use heavy weights and "negatives" to induce additional growth. Are we hard lifters relegated to limiting our workouts to less than once per week?



    Supplement Savior?

    The following information refers to a "double blind" study: a type of research in which supplement bottles are simply labeled by a letter (rather than the type of supplement). For example, subjects will get "A" or "B" - but neither they nor the researchers know what's what during the study. Only one outside person knows the code and breaks it for the researchers at the end. This ensures objectivity and eliminates bias until the end of the study...

    And yet these men are not content to simply acknowledge a problem. They’ve set out to do something about it with the help of Bodyonics Pinnacle and Phoenix Labs. With the financial commitment of these forward-looking companies and some compelling evidence on particular herbs from the scientific literature, it’s time to see if bodybuilders will have a legal alternative to insulin use. [Editors’ note: See “Bodybuilding and the Insulin Enigma” in the Virtual Muscle online archives.]

    The second in their series of studies on muscle recovery and insulin focused upon the acute (immediate) effects of a blend containing glucosol, inzitol, and known nutrients like chromium and lipoic acid. Would this combination reduce blood sugar after consuming carbohydrates? Would the effects be similar to those of insulin? Based on existing data from studies on diabetics and muscle cells in culture (in vitro studies), Mel Rich, product formulator (and pharmacist) for Pinnacle thinks so.

    The Human Nutrition Lab is now humming with hormone analyzers and overheating computers as data are created and analyzed. “Look at this,” says Dr. Mendel as Lonnie peers over his shoulder. “We’ve got three subjects done in each group and it looks as if a picture is emerging here.” Ron Mendel is looking closely at a blood (actually serum) marker of muscle damage called creatine kinase (CK). "First, we knew from your and Traci's data that CK was related to poor glucose tolerance1 (above) and now we know even more. Check it out... there’s a nearly significant decline in CK after four weeks of ingesting the capsules in group D; this wasn't expected, eh? Could the supplement protect subjects from a session THAT intense? Meanwhile the other group looks just as damaged as ever from the lifting session. I bet that's the placebo group. If it’s Insulene protecting the damage-resistant subjects then we may be onto something..."

    “Hey guys,” inquires Tim as he returns from the biochemistry lab. “How’s the data analysis coming?”

    “Well Z, Ron’s seeing some pretty interesting findings regarding improved muscle recovery… and check this out… after four weeks of the supplementation, there’s a trend toward lower fasting glucose levels in group D as well.”

    "Mel is definitely going to be interested in this,” muses Tim. All that digging in the scientific literature seems to be paying-off for him. And for Pinnacle. There’s very little chance that it's the placebo group that's improving after just a month, wouldn’t you agree? If only we knew right now! I'm telling ya, I can't wait to finally break the code and know for sure the reason for these recovery-boosting effects.

    Will these researchers’ hunch be right? Will the unique combination of insulin potentiating compounds pan out to be the reason for the improved ability to handle dietary carbs and recover better? The data won’t lie, so tune in next month when these guys finally wrap-up this study and ask colleague Dr. Karen Lowry-Gordon to unlock the “double blind” code.

    Only then will the Virtual Muscle editors start pestering Pinnacle executives for discounts on this fascinating supplement.

    Editors' Note: Remember, data on graphs above are preliminary, using available data (currently three to nine subjects per analysis) as it comes-in. It's important to wait for the completion of these studies for more comprehensive conclusions. Virtual Muscle shares this information in an effort to get it to those who matter, the ATHLETES, as soon as possible!



    REFERENCES

    Sexton, T. and Lowery, L. (2001). Oh J Sci (Medicine and Biology), 101 (1): 13.
    #2
    3XL
    Senior Moderator
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/01 19:23:03 (permalink)
    0
    Deel III


    http://web.archive.org/web/20030812...ghtmare_III.htm


    Part III: Lessons From a Year of Research

    by Drs. Lonnie Lowery, Ron Mendel and Tim Ziegenfuss


    This article is an update in a series. It's meant for those of you who have been following the whole research process at the Human Nutrition Lab since last Fall. After collecting and analyzing data on a total of 12 subjects, we have new findings to share. If you lift to the point of muscle soreness you should review this series of studies. Knowledge is power, baby. Show me the data!

    Also see Carb Nightmare Part I and Carb Nightmare Part II.





    Insulin Inquiry

    How is a dietary supplement evaluated? How do we assess if it "works"? If you've ever thought about such things, good for you. Knowing how and why dietary substances work help keep you from getting conned. There is a fairly consistent research process and it starts with asking the right questions. In the case of the new generation of herbs that aid humans' ability to handle dietary carbohydrate, called "insulin potentiators", a specific question came to mind: Can we overcome power athlete's difficulties in using dietary carbs? It's become rather well established that sore muscles don't take up carbs well (See Parts I and II). We've only recently shown this for the first time specifically in resistance-trained athletes.1 Well, guess what ? We at the Human Nutrition Lab (HNL) are resistance trained athletes... and we seem to always be sore. Are you? If so, your ability to recover and grow is probably compromised. And training like a wimp, avoiding soreness is not the answer. Soreness is a sign of progress.

    Dr. Lowery (Lonnie) has been examining post-exercise muscle soreness in the lab for about three years. But he knows soreness is just the tip of the iceberg. It's a symptom of something much deeper. A whole series of biological events take place over about four days after an intense workout. Lengthening contractions, called "eccentric" contractions or, in the weight room, "negatives", induce muscle damage, immune reactions and metabolic disturbances collectively referred to as the acute phase response.3 Believe it or not, it's the same response your body has to infection and trauma! Nutrition support is called for.

    One disturbance is glucose intolerance. Dietary carbohydrates don't enter muscle tissue well in this state. It could be due to hormonal alterations or perhaps damaged muscle tissue itself. It's particularly problematic for us athletes because we need carbs from our diets to form glycogen in our liver and muscles to optimally recover. Without replenished glycogen storage, athletes get fatigued, break down bodily protein and can't perform as well.1,2

    Over countless discussions in the lab we've wrestled with ways to handle this dilemma. Before conclusions could be made, however, we needed to observe and record various phenomena. That's part of what science is. Our first observation was that the current high-carb recommendations (up to 70 percent of kcal intake!) for all athletes stem from data on endurance athletes who aren't chronically sore. Perhaps this was why bodybuilders insist that "carbs make them fat". Our second observation came early this year with the confirmation that bodybuilders do, in fact, need help recovering...from a carb usage perspective. We confirmed this by looking carefully at insulin and blood glucose levels 24 hours after an intense whole-body workout using negatives. Here it is:

    Smith machine bench press:

    6 sets of six negative reps at 80% of 1 RM*

    Smith machine squat:
    6 sets of six negative reps at 80% of 1 RM*

    If this looks tough to you, you're pretty astute. It was. In fact, we used the Smith machine not only to remove skill differences in the exercises, but for safety reasons. Think how you'd feel after 36 slow, lowering reps (four-count) in the bench AND squat! Research can be rough on subjects as well as researchers! Check out the video.

    This type of data collection is a long, sometimes difficult, expensive, and somewhat invasive process. If you've been contaminated with the wild claims like "2000% better than D-bol !" that pervade our industry, it's time to smell the coffee. Let's get real. Dietary supplements are typically more mild than drugs (this can be good and bad, we suppose). Being as honest and straight forward as possible helps athletes. It is ultimately even the best long-term approach for supplement marketers. Supplement sales don't last if marketing claims don't live up to their hype. Our funding sources at the HNL know this and thus have few concerns with us sharing the presently mild effects (compared to insulin, for example) of a herbal blend called Insulene.



    Design Difficulties

    Since our last update, we've discovered that "group D" in our protocol was, in fact, the blend of "glucose control agents" and "group C" was, in fact, a placebo. Unfortunately, the effects regarding creatine kinase and glucose reduction were lost after adding a few additional subjects. What does this mean? Well, when analyzing four out of seven subjects, improved recovery was probable but as things now stand, the effect is not significant. Power analyses (see Carb Nightmare Part I) have their limitations when performing expensive, relatively invasive research on just a few subjects.

    To be more certain that any recovery effects are real, we've decided to look deeper. The nutrients within the Insulene supplement are too promising to ignore. Glucosol, Inzitol, lipoic acid and "insulin-potentiating" minerals are all backed by evidence that they could help athletes. Several companies now sell some or all of these substances in various products and athletes are raving. But please recognize that these nutrients must be documented by science. Next month we hope to perform what's called a "crossover" design, bringing placebo subjects back into the lab to try Insulene for one month. Of course, they won't know what they're taking. Likewise, we'll be asking Insulene subjects to come back for a month on the placebo. This way we can avoid genetic differences that we believe are confounding (messing up) our data. It's a longer process, to be sure, but it will allow for very tightly controlled research.

    We're here for you, the consumer, and, thus, need your support. Email your thoughts to Virtual Muscle! It's either that or you can continue to spend your hard-earned cash based on bullsh*t claims and marketing hype! The companies working with us at the Human Nutrition Lab agree that there's a better way. If you insist on hard data, stay tuned!



    New Bodybuilder-Specific Data!

    Our research is not only about dietary supplements. We've learned a ton about how bodybuilders recover and metabolize carbohydrates. Want to learn and grow as a result? Read on.

    After bringing in additional subjects (since our last update), we still found relationships between muscle damage and poor glucose use. We also looked carefully to see if our research protocols were producing results that one would expect. They did. For example, we found direct relationships between blood glucose and insulin levels after administering sugar beverages (for you research enthusiasts: r=0.63, p=0.028 to r=0.73, p=0.007). One would expect this: higher blood sugar brings about higher blood insulin levels. We also found correlations between our various markers of muscle damage, including soreness and serum enzymes coming from damaged tissues (p<0.05). Okay, so the expected relationships were there, but anything else interesting?

    Well, we learned that fat-free mass (largely muscle tissue) tended to correlate negatively with fasting blood glucose (r=-0.59, p=0.055) as well as "gummed-up red blood cells", known as "glycosylated hemoglobin" (r=-0.52, p=0.10). In this case, the negative correlation shows that subjects with higher fat free (muscle) mass had lower blood glucose levels over time. This suggests that adding muscle mass gives athletes more tissue to store glucose as glycogen (when they're not sore) and thus reduces potential "diabetes-like" problems (e.g. bodyfat). Cool. In other words, get big and recover properly to help stay lean.

    Additionally, we learned - as one might expect - that the heaviest squatters did more damage to themselves than weaker ones. This was observed despite setting everyone at 80 percent of their maximum squat for the workout (above). It makes sense that our strongest squatter (max = 525 pounds, workout at 420 lb.) self-inflicted more damage than the weaker ones who only worked out with about 135 pounds (even though they, too, were at 80 percent of their max).

    Alrighty then, to summarize what we know from this past year, specific to bodybuilders:

    Adding muscle appears to be a good thing regarding glucose usage and body fat reduction - if adequate recovery is present.

    Damaged sore muscles, however, are related to poor dietary carb use; one MUST recover to make progress.

    It makes sense to eat plenty of carbs on days when soreness is low / gone, especially in the morning.

    Strong guys can self inflict more damage in the weight room and may actually need nutrition support even more than beginning lifters.

    The time frame for unaided recovery from eccentric training can be approximately five days.

    Difficulties with dietary carb use occur in as little as 24 hours after lifting.

    We're already using this data to make ourselves better. Will you? Until next update from the lab, keep sending your feedback. It helps us form hypotheses towards better research!



    Editor's Note: Remember, data on graphs above are still preliminary, using available data (currently up to twelve subjects per analysis) as it comes in. It's important to wait for the completion of these studies for more comprehensive conclusions. Virtual Muscle shares this information in an effort to get it to those who matter, the ATHLETES, as soon as possible!



    REFERENCES

    Hargreaves, M. (1991). J Sports Sci. 9 Spec No:17-28.
    Lemon, P. and Mullin, J. (1980). J Appl Physiol. 48(4): 624-9.
    Lowery, L., et al. (2001). Doctoral dissertation. Kent State University.
    Sexton, T. and Lowery, L. (2001). Oh J Sci (Medicine and Biology), 101 (1): 13.
    #3
    jaap2
    Feather Weight
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/01 20:24:21 (permalink)
    0
    hey 3 de links naar de studies doen het niet, is wel een beetje irri want nu kan ik dus de grafiekjes niet zien.

    Ik heb het ff snel doorgelezen en ik ben het niet helemaal met je stelling eens hoor. Ik ben een fan van koolhydraten+eiwitten na een training met de corresponderende insuline piek dus ik ben wel bevooroordeeld. Dus dan weet iedereen dat ff.

    - de data die suggereerd dat bij verhoogd creatine kinase de glucose gevoeligheid achter uit gaat is gebaseerd op 5 personen. Later blijkt bij toevoeging van een aantal andere 2 maar geloof ik dat de resultaten niet eens significant meer zijn.

    - die data is gebaseerd op een OTGG, als het een standaard OTGG is dan is het niet echt relevant. Er zit namelijk een vast periode voor de inname van de dextrose en dat zie ik niet echt gebeuren nadat wij zwaar hebben getraind

    - de training die hun doen, is niet zoals ik train, hele zware negatieve herhalingen de heel training door. Het is wel bekend dat dit zorgt voor erg hoge CK

    - de data houdt geen rekening met de post workout window. OTGG voor training en 24 uur erna.
    - de recommendaties hebben het dan ook niet zozeer over suiker na training maar meer over totale carb inname. De 70% die ze noemen is dan ook al wel zeker achterhaald bij ons allen denk ik?
    - ze hebben het over de relatie tussen bloedsuiker in rust toestand en CK.

    - het is duidelijk te zien dat de studie afkomstig is van een supp bedrijf. Daar zit altijd wel wat bias.

    Maar goed dit zijn zo ff een paar dingen die ik heb. Ik zeg er ook bij dat ik niet de zin had om de referenties door te nemen. en ik heb de grafiekjes niet gezien. plus ik ben zwaar bevooroordeeld. Dus ook ik lul het naar mn eigen straartje.
    #4
    ErEf
    Growing pains BFF AD
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/01 20:32:38 (permalink)
    0
    deel 1 is nog wel te vinden op inet
    http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/lowery01.html plaatjes en alles

    deel 3 had ik nooit gelezen, was toen nog niet uit.. deel 2 kan ik verder ook nergens vinden.

    edit.. lekkere link had ik er staan.. naar topic over schoenen super blij
    post edited by ErEf - 2004/09/01 20:59:10
    #5
    3XL
    Senior Moderator
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/01 20:40:09 (permalink)
    0
    #6
    ErEf
    Growing pains BFF AD
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/01 21:08:37 (permalink)
    0
    btw.. 3.. tnx! heb zo ook heel vaak gezocht en niet kunnen vinden.
    #7
    Espi
    meten = weten!
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/01 21:57:32 (permalink)
    0
    Interessante artikelen 3XL!
    Is het daarom dat je ook een redelijke hoeveelheid KH voor en tijdens je training neemt?
    Als waar is wat hier geschreven staat is het belangrijk om je KH tijdens de training in te nemen, nog voor de spieren zodanig beschadigd raken dat ze niet meer goed KH op kunnen nemen.. Ook al traint bijna niemand zo zwaar als in de proeven hierboven, dan nog kan er wel iets waar van zijn.En tijdens de training wordt veel van de KH direct ingezet...

    Espi
    #8
    lauw †
    Number Two ;-)
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/02 10:55:11 (permalink)
    0
    Mooie artikelen. Wederom denk ik dat de conclusie van deze studie niet voor iedereen geldt. Maar de studie is overtuigend genoeg om eens een paar weken te experimenteren met KH inname.
    #9
    Espi
    meten = weten!
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/03 09:57:17 (permalink)
    0
    Eigenaardig dat hier zo weinig reactie op komt huh?! verbaasd

    Nog even mijn reactie zoals gegeven in Fitnessnet, waarin om meningen werd gevraagd over de waarde van het onderzoek voor KT.

    Mwah..
    1. het ging om negatieven
    2. al dat onderzoek was toch voornamelijk bij DUURsporters gedaan
    3. uit het Ketogenic Diet van Lyle McDonald (evenals UD2.0) wordt duidelijk dat een gemiddelde set 2,5 gram KH (glucose/glycogeen) vereist.
    Ben eens gaan tellen hoeveel sets is ongeveer uitvoer.. ok, met benen wat meer glucose nodig dan met bijv. schoudertraining.. mensen staan niet voor niks bijna te tollen na benentraining, dat is dan ongeveer 20-25 sets. Dat is een luizige 50-60 gram KH.

    Zelfs met een inname van 100g KH per dag red ik dat nog wel...
    (meestal schommel ik tussen 50-150 g KH/dag (rust/training).

    Espi (die om begrijpelijke redenen de meeste KH voor en tijdens de training neemt... just-in-time-delivery noemen ze dat in de logistiek)
    #10
    JePe
    Middle Weight
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/03 11:11:54 (permalink)
    0
    Is het daarom dat je ook een redelijke hoeveelheid KH voor en tijdens je training neemt?
    Als waar is wat hier geschreven staat is het belangrijk om je KH tijdens de training in te nemen, nog voor de spieren zodanig beschadigd raken dat ze niet meer goed KH op kunnen nemen

    Op zich zit hier wel logica in.

    Ik heb eigenlijk nooit zo goed begrepen waarom je na je training pas dextrose enzo moest nemen, en waarom niet tijdens? Vreemd opzich ook, tijdens kt leeg je je glycogeen, en die dien je daarna weer zo snel mogelijk aan te vullen. Waarom dan pas na de training?
    Btw, as je nu (wat ik momenteel doe) al dextrose in je water doet en dit geleidelijk nuttigt tijdens je training,.. maakt je lichaam dan ook niet al gebruik van deze dextrose, waardoor er dus minder glycogeen gebruikt wordt? Of is dit wat al te simpel....

    Btw, hoe zou dit zitten met de opname van aminozuren? Geldt hier hetzelfde voor?
    #11
    ErEf
    Growing pains BFF AD
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/03 12:06:28 (permalink)
    0
    ORIGINAL: lauw

    Mooie artikelen. Wederom denk ik dat de conclusie van deze studie niet voor iedereen geldt.

    niet mee eens.. de biologische principes gelden voor iedereen.

    Dat deze studie met alleen negatives werd uitgevoerd werd met opzet gedaan, omdat bij negatives de spieren het meest beschadigd worden.

    Beschadigde spieren nemen slechter voedingsstoffen op. Bijv. de standaard 75 gr dextrose na een training kan inderdaad dik maken. Veel te veel, de beschadigde spier kan het moeilijker opnemen, dus wordt het op andere plaatsen opgenomen, waar het minder tot niets te doen heeft aka vetomzetting.

    @ JePe.. tijdens de training wordt er zo goed als geen insuline afgegeven. Je lichaam is ook niet in 'opname' modus, maar moet verbranden en moet daarvoor energie vrij maken.

    Na je training verandert dat weer zodat je gebruik kan maken voor je insul gevoeligere spieren en de insuline afgifte die weer op gang komt. Dacht dat de insuline afgifte in 5 minuten na het begin van je training afnam. Tijdens je training is opname van voedingsstoffen dus verminderd.
    #12
    jaap2
    Feather Weight
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/04 15:11:36 (permalink)
    0
    ORIGINAL: ErEf
    niet mee eens.. de biologische principes gelden voor iedereen.

    Dat deze studie met alleen negatives werd uitgevoerd werd met opzet gedaan, omdat bij negatives de spieren het meest beschadigd worden.

    Beschadigde spieren nemen slechter voedingsstoffen op. Bijv. de standaard 75 gr dextrose na een training kan inderdaad dik maken. Veel te veel, de beschadigde spier kan het moeilijker opnemen, dus wordt het op andere plaatsen opgenomen, waar het minder tot niets te doen heeft aka vetomzetting.

    @ JePe.. tijdens de training wordt er zo goed als geen insuline afgegeven. Je lichaam is ook niet in 'opname' modus, maar moet verbranden en moet daarvoor energie vrij maken.

    Na je training verandert dat weer zodat je gebruik kan maken voor je insul gevoeligere spieren en de insuline afgifte die weer op gang komt. Dacht dat de insuline afgifte in 5 minuten na het begin van je training afnam. Tijdens je training is opname van voedingsstoffen dus verminderd.


    biologische principes gelden voor iedereen? Waarom groeit een neger dan op een boterham met pindkaas terwijl ik me de tering moet vreten en trainen? knipoog

    maar ff serieus, spreek je jezelf niet een beetje tegen eref? je zegt aan de ene kant dat beschadigde spieren slechter voedingstoffen op nemen (deze studie's gingen trouwens alleen over suikers en voedingsstoffen is wat algemener dus als je daar ook wat studies over hebt...) terwijl je aan de ander kant zegt dat na trainen (dus beschadiged spieren) je spieren gevoeliger zijn voor insuline? Hetgeen betekent dat de spieren juist meer suiker opnemen met minder insuline dus beter voedingsstoffen opnemen?

    ZOals uit mijn reactie wel bleek ben ik namelijk meer overtuigd van het tweede standpunt, in het kort de post-workout window.
    Ik vindt het jammer dat deze studies daar geen rekening mee hebben gehouden. Ik vindt de meetwijze van deze onderzoeken gewoon niet goed eigenlijk.

    @reacties:
    -het drinken van suiker voor een training is niet slim omdat je spierglycogeen en lever glycogeen (in het geval van ons vreetzakken) dan toch al gevuld is.
    - over het drinken van suiker tijdens een training zijn er verdeelde meningen. Er zijn erg interessante onderzoeken die aantonen dat het drinken suiker tijdens een traininglijdt tot sneller herstel (als in minder CK en snellere positieve stikstof balans)
    - @ espiranti baseer jij je KH behoefte alleen maar op je uitgave van een training? Of volg je nog steeds een ketogeen dieet?

    pfft ik blijf maar typen en onzin spuien he ik zal maar weer eens gaan kappen.
    #13
    Espi
    meten = weten!
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/04 21:07:15 (permalink)
    0
    Ja, ik baseer mijn inname van KH vnl. op die van een training.. en af en toe junk ik tot rond 250 gram KH oid. Zoals gisteren op een feestje van een kennis. Bewuste carbolaoding zoals in CKD heb ik overboord gegooid. Voel me prettig bij deze werkwijze en alleen zo kan ik de hoeveelheid kcals bescheiden houden (lees: licht cutten) , genoeg eiwitten binnenkrijgen en niet het idee hebben dat ik mezelf straf met cutten omdat met enige beperkingen ik allerlei vette dingen kan eten (vette kaas, vette haring/paling) die anderen moeten laten staan.

    Dan terug ontopic

    net op Lyle's forum iets gelezen wat hier verband mee houdt... even sleur & pleur .. is wel met ratten maar toch. Je zou het artikel ook 'ratten die squatten' kunnen noemen knipoog

    Attenuated insulin action on glucose uptake and transport in muscle following resistance exercise in rats.

    Fluckey JD, Ploug T, Galbo H.

    Department of Medical Physiology, PANUM Institute and the Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen, Denmark.

    A previous study reported elevations of insulin-mediated muscle protein synthesis following four days of resistance exercise in rats (Fluckey et al. 1996. Am J Physiol 270, E313-E319). The purpose of this study was to determine if insulin-stimulated muscle glucose uptake (a-v diff.) and 2-deoxyglucose (2-DG) transport were altered under similar conditions. The protocol consisted of squat-like exercises during four sessions with progressively increased weight (70-190 g). Each session consisted of 50 repetitions and sessions were separated by 48 h. Sixteen hours after the last exercise session, basal glucose uptake in perfused hindlimbs was not different (P > 0.05) between exercised (n=6) and non-exercised controls (n=6). However, there was a significant (P < 0.05) attenuation of insulin-stimulated (20 000 microU mL-1) glucose uptake in exercised vs. non-exercised rats (491 +/- 31 vs. 664 +/- 58 micromol glucose-1 g-1 [15-min insulin period]-1, respectively). Following resistance exercise, insulin-stimulated 2-DG transport, measured during the last 10 min of the perfusion period, was significantly reduced (P < 0.05) in the soleus, white gastrocnemius and extensor digitorum longus muscles. Additionally, GLUT-4 glucose transporter protein content was significantly reduced (P < 0.05) in white gastrocnemius and extensor digitorum longus muscles. These results demonstrate that insulin-stimulated glucose uptake and transport are reduced after resistance exercise. Furthermore, the applied resistance exercise protocol causes directionally opposite changes of insulin action in two major metabolic pathways, i.e. glucose transport and protein synthesis


    poster zei:
    I am doubting that since insulin is responsible for both protein and glucose transoprt; and since resistance exercise increase protein syntheis more so that glucose uptake, glucose uptake is intentionally blunted as a stratergy to increase the efficiency of protein uptake.


    Lyle zei:
    It's been known for years that muscle damage can cause problems with glucose uptake. 2-3 day mark or so.

    But it's going to happen way faster in rats like everything else.

    Also note that only insulin stimulated glucose uptake was impaired, not basal.

    wat is dan de basale glucose opname? Bedoelt hij hiermee te zeggen dat geringe hoeveelheden glucose wel maar grote hoeveelheden NIET worden opgenomen?

    De OP zei weer :

    am just curious since glucose is vitally important for protein synthesis, why suppress glucose uptake. If not; is it bcos, as I wrote earlier that insulin can only effeiciently enable the uptake of one nutrient at a time( just my guess).


    Lyle weer:

    i doubt that's the case, any impairment to insulin stimualted glucose uptake should apply to insulin stimulated amino acid uptake as well.

    Also not sure I agree that glucose is essential for protein synthesis. Adequate cellular energy stores to be sure and raising insulin has synergist effects as far as inhibiting protein breakdown.

    It also depends a lot on the extent of loading. i dunno what 50 reps in rats equates to in humans but most of the studies looking at impaired glucose uptake into human muscles cells used pretty absurd eccentric protocols.


    Haha.... hier hebben we de eccentrische oefeningen weer!
    #14
    jaap2
    Feather Weight
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/05 14:50:07 (permalink)
    0
    ah het gaat je dus meer om cals dan om de ketogene theorie.

    maar on topic.

    met basale glucose opname bedoelen ze zeg maar de opname die altijd plaats vind die dus niet word beinvloed door externe factoren.

    Jammer dat ik de niet in de hele text van het onderzoek kan kijken want ik wil eigenlijk weten in wat voor tijdsframe ze die ratten hebben aangesloten op het infuus. Maar wat ik uit de tekst afleid is dat ze begonnen 16 uur na de training. Dus ook hier geen rekening met de periode na trianing. Maar dat is dus niet te zien.

    Belangrijke factoren lijken dus te zijn, periode na trianing en de aard van de oefeningen. Want kijkt men hier naar:


    The aim of this investigation was to determine if resistance training exercise improved glucose uptake and transport in rodent skeletal muscle. Sprague-Dawley rats were assigned to one of the three groups: control (CON), resistance trained (RT) and aerobic exercise trained (AT). Resistance trained rats were placed in a rodent squat apparatus and performed three sets of 10 repetitions at 75% of their one repetition maximum 3 days week1 for 12 weeks. Aerobic exercise training consisted of running the rats 3 days week1 for 45 min over a 12-week period on a motor-driven treadmill (32 m min1, 15% grade). Following the training period, all animals were subjected to hind limb perfusion in the presence of 500 U mL1 insulin. Hind limb glucose uptake was similar in the RT (9.91 ± 0.7 mol g1 h1) and AT (10.23 ± 1.0 mol g1 h1) animals and significantly greater than control (CON) (6.40 ± 0.6 mol g1 h1). Rates of 3-O-methyl-d-glucose transport in the RT animals were elevated in the muscles utilized for RT while in the AT animals rates of 3-O-methyl-d-glucose transport were increased in those muscles recruited for running. The increased rates of 3-O-methyl-d-glucose transport in the skeletal muscles of the resistance trained and aerobic exercise trained animals appeared to be, in part, because of an increased GLUT4 protein concentration. These findings suggest that both resistance or aerobic training exercise can improve insulin-stimulated skeletal muscle glucose uptake and transport, but the training adaptations are restricted to the muscles recruited for the exercise performance.



    dan ziet men dat "het" verbeterd. Maar hier is het trainingsprotocol dus weer anders en zijn er dus weer geen gevolgen aan te ontlenen. Een ander factor is dat het hier ook net als in zoveel studies gaat om ratten. En de receptoren van ratjes zijn toch net iets anders. Maar goed wat een bla bla bla wetenschappelijke onzin allemaal. Zoals ik al zo vaak heb gezegd mijn mening is dat je moet het een beetje uitproberen en dan kijken wat voor je werkt want iedereen is weer anders. Ik denk dat mijn volgende experiment het spuiten van negerbloed word super blij
    #15
    Marcus
    Natural born chiller
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/05 15:16:11 (permalink)
    0
    Ik denk dat mijn volgende experiment het spuiten van negerbloed word


    Is inmiddels achterhaald dat je daar grotere piemel, meer ritmegevoel en meer sex appeal van zou krijgen Jaap, zal de relevante onderzoeken wel even opzoeken voor je.
    #16
    Smalluser
    *Retired Founder*
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/05 15:17:30 (permalink)
    0
    Hahahahaaaaa ROFL

    Groet
    #17
    Espi
    meten = weten!
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/05 15:20:15 (permalink)
    0
    Haha... nou foei, dat is niet netjes Jaap!

    Het gaat me nu idd meer om de calorische beperking. Daar eiwitten ook de meeste energie kosten om verbruikt te worden is er ook een positiever gevolg te verwachten van het ophogen van de eiwitten tov het ophogen van de vetten..
    Dat is dus een misvatting waar ik vrij lang in geloofd heb.. eveneens in het positieve effect van het in ketose verkeren. Dat is dus stierenstront gebleken.. Het is aan de andere kant wel degelijk nuttig om de insuline respons zo laag mogelijk te houden vanwege de remmende werking van insuline op glucagon.

    Tot zover dus het nut van het lowcarb dieet.. de vraag stelling is nu: ga je tot slechts 2 g/kg aan eiwitten of ga je hoger zitten.. qua leefwijze is hoger niet fijn als je je kcals wilt inperken omdat het de keuze voor voedingsmiddelen enorm inperkt.. en ja, het moet ook leuk blijven super blij .
    Low-carb eten is absoluut geen opoffering, sterker nog: zou het niet anders meer willen (afgezien van af en toe de verlangens naar heerlijk maar steeds minder heerlijk smakend junkfood met zowel veel vet als KH), maar low-carb & low-fat eten is heel andere koek.

    Qua voeding rondom je workout ben ik er nog steeds niet uit... moet je je richten op optimale vetverbranding en daar je workoutshake op afstemmen of moet je je richten op optimaal herstel en dus evt. wel redelijk wat KH nemen...
    Hoe belangrijk zijn die KH wel niet? Is het nodig om hoogglycemische KH te nemen???
    Aannames die men heeft, blijken vaak gebaseerd te zijn op onderzoeken bij duursporters en niet bij krachtsporters. Zelfs wanneer er bij krachtsporters onderzoek gedaan is, is het de vraag in hoeverre de resultaten geëxtrapoleerd kunnen worden omdat er bijv. alleen eccentrisch getraind is (zie hierboven). Gaat het op voor zowel beginners als voor gevorderden?
    Gaat het op voor mensen die een zeer geavanceerde split doorvoeren en slechts 1x per week alles tot de max trainen en dan miss wel 6 dagen trainen? Hoe zit het met lieden die aan HST of ingewikkelder varianten doen?

    En dan heb je natuurlijk ook de kwestie van timing: wat neem je dan voor, tijdens of na de workout? Hier ontstaat oorlog over... omdat emoties hoog opspelen en wetenschap en persoonlijke ervaringen en alles wat er tussenin zit met elkaar vermengd wordt.

    In de praktijk ken ik weinig mensen zoals 3XL die zo methodisch te werk gaan zoals hij.
    Het is mij ook tamelijk raadselachtig hoe mensen nu echt kunnen merken wat iets bij ze doet.... dan neem ik toch daar mijn petje voor af want voor mij geldt dat ik liever afga op onderzoeksresultaten of mensen die meerdere atleten begeleiden en daar ervaring mee hebben, dan dat ik op 'gevoelens' van indviduen afga, of het nu die van mezelf of die van anderen is...

    Iig is het voor mij persoonlijk niet slim gebleken om te weinig snelle KH (glucose, sucrose), snelle vetten (MCT) of snelle eiwitten (wei of BCAAs) te nemen omdat je je enorm brak gaat voelen als je energie te kort komt. En dan overmatig veel gaat eten om te overcompenseren. Af en toe sta ik hier wel versteld omdat het me bijv. wel lukte om tot 400km nonstop te fietsen zonder noemenswaardige voedselinname.. al is het uiteraard dan wel voor 95% aerobe activiteit. De motor gaat gewoon geruisloos over op diesel .. trekt niet zo hard meer op maar man met de hamer nee.. nu die komt wel degelijk langs bij KT en dan vooral na een benentraining...

    Espi
    #18
    jaap2
    Feather Weight
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/05 16:37:23 (permalink)
    0
    Ik denk ook wel dat het verstandig is je richtlijnen te vormen naar "algemene" opvattingen maar wat voor de een werkt werkt voor de ander minder. Ik vindt daarom dat je gewoon een beetje moet expirimenteren.

    En je hebt gelijk het is meer een techniek voor gevorderde atleten die hun lichaam beter kennen. IN het begin is het gewoon verstandig om te doen wat andere mensen zeggen omdat dit vaak al moeilijk genoeg is. Iedereen kan zich nog wel herinneren hoe lekker die eerste lepel lijnzaadolie was vies bah
    #19
    Espi
    meten = weten!
    RE: High carbs for everyone?:Carb nightmare I,II en III - III 2004/09/05 17:01:10 (permalink)
    0
    Psies.. en juist daarom is een voedingsschema zo handig.. of het exact bijhouden van wat je doet.

    En dan hebben we het er nog heeeeelemaal niet over gehad dat vrouwen van Venus komen en vaak totaal andere vet/KH-stofwisseling hebben dan mannen en ook nog eens grote variaties vertonen in de 2 diverse fases van een cyclus.

    Espi
    #20
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